@jyg said:

Yes. Indeed, I started unilateraly to edit french version of floss manual
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/puredata/quelles-sont-les-differentes-versions-de-pure-data/

Great! I might help when I'll have time!

@porres said:

They do not, by far, replace "all pd-extended", nope, sorry, not a fact. Where's ceammc's GEM replacement for instance?

True. That's another topic, but I am using ofelia abstractions to replace Gem in puredata vanilla and ceammc lib. I think efforts for video processing on pd should be focused on it in the future since Gem is always broken on OSX and openframeworks is stil an active project.

@porres said:

And what are you suggesting with "Purr Data + ceammc lib"? A Floss manuals for both?

I was just dreaming that one day the modern GUI of Purr Data could meet the good organization of ceammc-lib,

@porres said:

Folks, when I started this thread, I made no mention to Purr Data. Purr Data is something else. I get the confusion, I get the relation, it's not out of purpose to bring this up here, but I want to make things clear.

I just thought that the actual old extended could be re-usable (movable?) to a Purr data specific flossmanuals and not completly thrown away...

I agree with making flossmanuals a PureData (pd-vanilla) compatible manual. I just pointed out that flossmanuals PureData could be written in a more accessible way than pd-manuals itself, and could include some externals like else or ceammc later for exemple.
ceammc lib is handy and too few people know it for exemple. It allows me to make my last workshops less confusing by using a great and exhaustive set of objets grouped by their function and they really "simplify the learning process and makes the language itself more clear."

@porres So... and you seem up for it..... let's have a better Pure Data Vanilla manual...... start with that and leave the rest for later.

Terminology...?
Will you adopt "manual" in preference to "Documentation"?
Will you stress (emphasise) "VANILLA" so that it is recognised and understood by new users?...
...... "Pure Data Vanilla Manual"....?..... "Pure Data - The Core - Vanilla"..... "The beating heart of `Pure Data - Vanilla"........."Pure Data Vanilla - The Matrix" ......:

"Pure Data Vanilla is the core.... the "operating system" of Pure Data".
And then introduce externals and Deken at the very start of the manual (before the current Chapters 1 and 2) so that new users stay concentrated on Vanilla as they progress......knowing that the other stuff is "extra" and exactly what that means.
No details will be required at that point... just one sentence and a link to the workings of Deken in a later chapter.

Once that is achieved the same few sentences from the start of the new Vanilla manual need to be added to the start of every other manual and tutorial that exists on the web......... if that is possible.

Would "Core" or some other word actually be better than "Vanilla"?
It has a meaning that is slightly obscure in modern English.
Google is not enthusiastic...... and brown paper envelopes are a rarity nowadays.......
"Synonyms & Antonyms of vanilla · beige, · characterless, · faceless, · featureless, · indistinctive, · neutral, · noncommittal, · nondescript."
David.

@lacuna said:

(I would also recommend learning Vanilla first and start using other libs once you know basic vanilla-vocabulary.
...right click on the blank canvas > help , shows all vanilla objects...
Else you might be browsing huge lists of ojects of many libs for each problem to solve, instead of finding the solution by thinking in Vanilla, with it's limits in mind. )

I remember learning PD-Extended as beginner, and the crowded "extra" folder was overwhelming, as downsides:
There were libs for very specific tasks, that I never would have thought of (and get distracted by), different objects doing the same or almost the same, objects, that can be build with 3 Vanilla-objects, different authors with different terminology, design- and documentation-philosophies, ect.

The learning curve was steep, but in that time I thought Vanilla would be lame and only being used for embedded projects or by purists.

The death of Extended was a great loss, but later a revelation to me:
You can do "everything" (ok, not really) with Vanilla while the vocabulary is small.
And Vanilla is small enough to last, to get bug fixes, and run stable.

@whale-av said:

and brown paper envelopes are a rarity nowadays.......

You are confusing "manila" and "vanilla." Manila is a fiber like hemp which is used to make various things and they all end up that sort of brown color. Vanilla in this use just means plain and unadorned, like plain old vanilla ice cream with no toppings. Fairly common usage, at least in the US.

Edit; That was somewhat pointless and pedantic. Seemed very relevant and on topic while I was waiting for my coffee to brew.

If we talking about naming conventions, it should clearly be named "External Manager", not "Deken"

Anyone knows who 'mickfuzz' is? => https://en.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/_info/

just emailed him

and why do we have an archived version of the manua that is just the same here => http://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/ ?

And why is the manual in different languages different? https://fr.flossmanuals.net/puredata/introduction/

Is it cause we just have total chaos, mess, and independent unofficial takes on what a Pd manual is and should be? and depending on what language you speak you get a different idea and information?

@porres From what I understand when the manual reaches a state where the authors feel it is done it is published as a pdf on www.flossmanuals.net and can be downloaded or bought as print on demand, the web version is then archived at the archive.flossmanual.net address. The version at write.flossmanuals.net is a new version which was opened to continue developing the next edition, but it was never worked on after the first version was published. To sign up for working on it you fill out the form at https://www.flossmanuals.org/get-involved-0, I applied for access on Saturday but have yet to hear back.

So I think new Pure Data Floss requires:

1. a new intro
   1.1 Pd creation history
   1.2 Pd forks and Vanilla externals
2. Update Tutorials keeping externals

something more?

@porres

where's this by the way?

There: < https://github.com/Spaghettis/Tools >.

But as it is just for my fork, that's not compatible anymore with Pd.

Note that it was a very painfull experience to "clean" the Puckette patches.
For me the official manual of Pd is the Puckette book.
That's why all the tutorials can not be changed easily (i.e. without changing the book also).

@Nicolas-Danet said:

But as it is just for my fork, that's not compatible anymore with Pd.

so how can I see what you did?

Note that it was a very painfull experience to "clean" the Puckette patches.

I don't know what you did and when, but recently I also "cleaned" them up and the result is already there in the latest version. I guess my OCD makes me a good candidate for this kind of work... it took me a week, but it wasn't painful

cheers

@oid said:

To sign up for working on it you fill out the form at https://www.flossmanuals.org/get-involved-0, I applied for access on Saturday but have yet to hear back.

I applied on monday, nothing yet here, what about there?

@porres Same, no response yet.

@porres

so how can I see what you did?

Build Spaghettis!

Notice that since i'm currently working on a new version with JUCE the current version can be considered absolutely WIP.

@emviveros said:

a new intro
1.1 Pd creation history
1.2 Pd forks and Vanilla externals
Update Tutorials keeping externals
something more?

Maybe useful plugins like drag&drop, completion, patcherize...
Some of them are so useful that they should be inside vanilla pure-data.

@Nicolas-Danet said:

Build Spaghettis!

c'mon, no download anywhere? no release? No step by step instructions on how to build?

Notice that since i'm currently working on a new version with JUCE the current version can be considered absolutely WIP.

what's 'WIP'?

@oid said:

@porres Same, no response yet.

I'm suspecting there's something wrong and funny here!!!

@porres

https://github.com/Spaghettis/Spaghettis#run
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/work_in_progress#English

@Nicolas-Danet said:

https://github.com/Spaghettis/Spaghettis#run

ok, that was actually easy so this?

I'm actually curious now about this project, I haven't heard about it yet and would like to know what it offers. But sorry about me asking this, cause I see you have different help files, but they are much more minimal and lack information we have in Pd vanilla. Is this still going on? Am I missing something?

cheers

That threads could contain few responses:

https://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/11738/spaghettis-yet-another-fork-of-pure-data
https://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/12588/the-future-of-spaghettis

I don't like big blocks of text (it's hard to translate, hard to read for lazy frenches).
I prefer examples.
Anyway i'll have to redo all of them again once the JUCEd GUI done.
Less things is less work!
Notice that i'll remove a lot of features in next version < https://github.com/Spaghettis/Spaghettis/issues/25 >.
I don"t have time for everything.
Make the DSP foolproof will be the main task.
I will be more than happy in the future to let users improve the help/turorials.
IMHO it is a thing in FLOSS that newcomers can do first....
...before to jump into the source code and help me to tweak the stuff.
That's why there's no already built downlable thing (for now).
I want the users to be motivated to see under the hood.

And to not hijack that thread, probably a good idea is to continue on those above.