Hi!

I hope this is the right place to ask about this....It might have been dicussed before but I haven't been able to find an aswer yet...

Does somebody have an example on how to handle 14-bit midi cc messages o PD?
....I'm a bit lost here?
is it possible to still use the ctlin object or do i have to mess with the raw midi input?

Any help would be really appreciated!

@kleko Here's an excerpt of something I wrote to read the 14 bit CC messages generated by each fader of my mixer. I'm not sure if this is always the case, but my mixer always sends the most significant 7 bits first, so that's why I can be casual about the fan-out from that first route.

@kleko 14 bit midi is cool, I've played around sending it to reaper, I dont really understand but it seems to override the precision of a VST

this is all you need to get it into PD, they can be assigned 1-31, and then you just have the second value be +32 from it

@fishcrystals ope meant 2^14 = [/ 16384] .. close enough ..

That [t b f] will give spurious values, though, I wouldn't.

[buddy] from cyclone is designed for this case.

Or vanilla:

23-0727-pd-14-bit-midi-vanilla.pd

EDIT: Replaced the last image and pd patch upload -- previously I used [+] in the buddy logic but it really must be bitwise-or.

hjh

thats interesting ddw_music lets look at what its doing - im going to just barreelly move a theoritcal 14 bit midi knob and also show 14 bit midi inside and out

basically identical but it does look to my eyes that [t f b] just fractionally triggers sooner sometimes

what you really want is to probably add some slew to smooth it out even more. using [line] like a lowpass filter or put it into [sig~] with [lop~ 10] put some butter on your butter

also - a 14 bit midi message's LSB is +32 from its MSB (and the MSB is the CC number you tell the software/hardware)

@fishcrystals The issue I'm referring to is: What if you're at MSB = 1, LSB = 127 (total value = 255), and increment the controller by 1?

Using the tbf way, if the controller sends MSB first, then LSB, then the MSB change will trigger a new value (2*128) + 127 = 383, and then the LSB goes to 0 giving the expected 256.

If the controller sends LSB first, then MSB, then the LSB change will trigger a new value (1*128) + 0 = 128, and then the MSB goes to 2 giving the expected 256.

• Expected: 255 -- 256
• Case 1: 255 -- 383 -- 256
• Case 2: 255 -- 128 -- 256

And there won't be a way in the downstream logic to detect which value is wrong.

The input format is 2 messages for one output value; it's not correct to produce two output values. The purpose of the buddy logic is to make sure you get both incoming bytes before pushing out the value.

hjh

first of all just for the person asking the question - this is a polite conversation its just entering very deep kind of esoteric territory (also not sorry about the font jk im just trying out ideas about how to fix the tiny fonts but a lot of pixel fonts actually need to be big and dont read well super small)

14 bit midi is reallly undocumented and rarely used even tho it's awesome - way cooler than MPE and there is also No Good search engine results with actual answers. I've used it from pd into reaper (in reaper you have an option to use 14 bit midi and then you choose the msb value) and I don't even understand why it overrides the VSTs resolution - and my plan is to use it with arduino to get around some limitations about serial data - so I'm happy to keep poking at it and talking about it.

Here's something missing I found with your approach ddw_music - and also I still dont understand about the concurrent messaging - Im happy to have it up my sleve tho I'll probably run into it pretty soon -

so CC messages are individual of each other - it's not sending them both every time as far as I kno - when you are just super finely moving a 14 bit midi knob to increment in tiny values that would mostly be sent over the LSB which is a separate CC until it wraps around with [% ] or [mod ] ([%] is depreciated but they will both work - tho [%] might not work right on some athlon desktop computers) - so when I switch to their sliders to emulate that it looks like the cloned max external in cyclone here actually doesn't work to send information.

I wish I had some 14 bit midi gear to test tho I could be wrong because I dont have the behringer knob dude to check (I could borrow one tho its flashed with a sequencer) - I think a 14 bit midi message is just going to send one message because why would you want to double up all that data, most midi is about removing data (like running status)

@fishcrystals said:

so CC messages are individual of each other - it's not sending them both every time as far as I kno...

Ah ok, I didn't think of that optimization. [buddy] wouldn't work in that case.

It's still true that, when it does send both messages in quick succession, only one output value should be generated. I guess I would use a very short delay bang to wait just a ms or 2 to allow the second message to come (if it's coming). Where haptics are involved, 1 or 2 ms is not humanly detectable.

hjh

This variant responds to individual MIDI messages while also suppressing the extra value when two come in at once.

hjh

@ddw_music Beware all....... Yamaha send MSB and LSB in reverse order to everyone else.. see below for how to deal with that....
Also most manufacturers... for low values.... when only 7bits are required they output just the LSB.

You might already be aware of all that.

A byte has 8 bits, bit 0 to bit 7 (0 = cleared or 1 = set).
A MIDI status byte – i.e. what sort of MIDI message it is - always has bit 7 set
A MIDI data byte – i.e. what value - always has bit 7 cleared.
Therefore a data byte can only use the lower 7 bits to determine its value
0 to 127 ($7F) or 0111 1111 (bit 0 is the rightmost 1, bit 7 is 0)
To get a value greater than 127 we join two data bytes together. The rightmost 7 bits from each byte gives a 14 bit number
0111 1111 and 0111 1111 becomes 0011 1111 1111 1111 the top 2 bits (bit14 and bit15) are ignored
So the 14bit number range is0 to 16383 ($3FFF) or 0011 1111 1111 1111(this is just 14 data bits in a 16 bit number – the 2 top (leftmost) bits are always 0).
The two bytes that make up the 14 bit number are what MIDI calls a course adjustment and a fine adjustment.
The byte that does a course adjustment is called the Most Significant Byte (MSB) and the fine adjuster is called the Least Significant Byte (LSB).

Also NRPN can be very slow over midi when data rates are high...... and SYSEX will be much faster.

David.

P.S. I have a lot of old docs and software from the decade before last..... midi stuff.... that has disappeared from the web...... stuff that can change encoder resolution on Behringer BCF units for example, which is not available in the Behringer software or on the hardware.
Just ask.

@whale-av said:

Yamaha send MSB and LSB in reverse order to everyone else

Quite a few reverse that, Alesis did as well (at least for the ion/Micron) and Akai sometimes did (at least for the Mini-AK which is a Micron). Like all things NRPN it is non-standard.

@whale-av said:

@ddw_music Beware all....... Yamaha send MSB and LSB in reverse order to everyone else.. see below for how to deal with that....

I believe I've taken care in my patches to be completely independent of the order in which messages come from the source. I accounted for that already.

hjh

Very interesting conversation. @fishcrystals are you sure the LSB is +32? I'm trying out the things posted here, but I'm not sure I get somewhere meaningful. When I twist a knob, the absolute difference between current and previous value is always 128, so there's no realy 14-bit there.

@alexandros yeah I'm sure* - I send it to reaper and in reaper tell a knob on a VST to be a 14 bit CC. I was testing the Korg MS-20 VST with the resonance cranked doing a filter sweep to try and hear the stepping... for science

*I'm not sure about hardware like a Behringer B-Control Rotary BCR 2000 - 14 bit is esoteric and was never really used, they went off with MPE which is still pretty fun when patched right - if I had something hardware that does 14 bit midi I'd just open up Midi-OX (it runs great in wine btw, I like how you can set it to show decimal) to see what two CCs its sending on.

@whale-av toss them up on archive.org like this champ https://archive.org/details/@bubba_jones i bet ill run across it, ive been collecting and looking for old music/synth books/manuals - cheaper hobby than collecting synths, kind of want to look at the back of the BCR manual

@fishcrystals OK, so I'm trying out MIDI-OX with wine, and when I twist a knob, I get one controller number only. My controller is novation launchkey mini. The only thing I did was set the hardware as input, and then I look at the monitor when twisting knobs. I do get DATA1 and DATA2, but DATA1 is stuck to 15. Didn't even know about MIDI-OX, so there might something more I need to do.

@fishcrystals Here you go...... the editor actually works unlike Behringer's.... and SecretBC should tell you what you didn't know that you needed to know......
Behringer's doc is pretty poor for the BC units.....
I say the editor works..... just a small anomaly is that you have to type in 16383 for val2 for 14-bit, as it is missing as an option in the drop down list..... no big deal...... and the value will be forever planted in your brain...... range 16384...... values 0-16383.
The editor is for windows.. and one of the reasons that I have always carried a Mac that runs bootcamp..... ready for any eventuality on the road.
Back up before you play...
BCF-BCR.zip

I might try to push to an archive one day, but there is 3Gb of stuff...... lots useful....... lots sysex dumps, firmware etc...... all to be catalogued first.
David.

@alexandros I cannot find any mention of 14-bit or nrpn for your Novation.
There is a programmer you can download from them..... but still no mention.
It could be that the Logic preset will give you 14-bit on the encoders (or one of the other presets?) in which case maybe you could hack something together from that.
David.

@alexandros the software editor for your device is always the best place to look into (and occasionally they have updates that add functionality or fix things) https://us.novationmusic.com/components

@alexandros Only pitchbend uses data1 and data2 for the 14 bit value.

It combines CC and CC+32 for a MSB and LSB value. In midi-ox a CC is Status 176, Data1 is the CC number Data2 is the value

There's a copy of an old 32bit build of wine for mac on winhq so I got lucky, I keep an older macbook pro around that can run 32bit for all the prosumer firewire music gear. >:)